From Celosia on 3 April 1999Allan-
I must apologize. As I stated before, I've never met a Christian who was kind in his/her beliefs, or one who was able to say that they may be wrong. I assumed you were one of the Christians who was 'simply right, and there was no other possibility,' and I am deeply sorry for assuming that.
I am sorry I have not been showing you anything that books haven't shown you, but I am unaware of the knowledge you already have. If you wish to know/confirm anything you have read in books or already been told, please ask. I will answer anything openly and with as much insight as I can offer.
You also stated you wished to discuss monism, pantheism, and polytheism. As I stated, I will discuss anything you so desire. I have always been a very open woman, in discussing various controversial topics. If you want to bring up any topics, please ask, and I will respond as best I can.
You know, you really have me backed into a corner. I hate to admit it, but you do. I have read the Bible before, but not since I was quite young. I was unaware that there was so much to back it up. I knew some historical facts were tied into the Bible, but I did not realize it was quite so many. I suppose I have very little to counter that.
I must counter one thing you stated about my beliefs, though. You said "Instead of preaching repentance from sin, you preach a reawakening of the Self." Well, yes and no. First, I do not practice a 'New Age' belief. I go into the history books and Practice as close to the Ancient Religion as is possible today. I refuse to sacrifice steer, sheep, doves, and other small animals, however. I do not feel that the Gods, or any other God, should demand tribute in the form of innocent blood. I disagree with some things my religion practiced. And yes, I do believe in a reawakening of the Self, but when the Self awakes, it is cleansed of what you call sin. I do not preach, I simply answer questions when people ask, and I speak out when I feel there is error. This is what I did when I first wrote you. I felt there was error in what you spoke, and I felt the need to speak against it. I never expected to have an ongoing conversation with one of the most interesting people I have ever met via e-mail and the Internet.
I do not worship the 'Virgin, Mother, and Crone' as you put it. In fact, I have never heard of the Goddess as these forms before. I worship Artemis as the Maiden Huntress, I have stated this previously. In this form, She represents Strength, Pride, Skill, Freedom, and also the Moon and Night. Never does She represent killing and destruction. I can see from the name Maiden Huntress that you may think that, and I know others have seen her that way. However, I suppose I cannot exactly explain Her to you as I worship Her, because mine is a dead religion. Are you at all familiar with the Trojan War? If so, do a little research into the city of Troy itself. In the city, there were two temples. One for Apollo, Sun-Lord, and one for the Maiden Huntress. In this city, Artemis was worshipped as a trusting and amazing Goddess, by both men and women. I will go into that in more detail later, if you like.
You also said that 'prophecy is not a guess, a forecast, a calculation, a mere conjecture, a vague generalization, or an educated analysis of a forthcoming event or situation.' By the definition of what you did say prophecy is, I would qualify to be a prophetess. I have had more visions and premonitions than most people would ever know what to do with. I have had vivid dreams, 'daydreams' and outright visions of things to come. Does this mean I am blessed? Does this mean I am a prophetess? No, it simply means I see things, I hear voices, I am a complete psychopathic idiot. This is what people like me are called in these days and times. Hundreds of years ago, people would have flocked to me. Now, they do not. And I do not have 'vague generalizations' either. I have all-out visions. Events happen in my mind exactly as they happen within days, sometimes as long as a week or two, but they never take long. Every dream I have had since I was 14 years old has happened, exactly word-for-word, event-for-event. Does this mean I can tell you exactly what will truly happen, how accurate Revelations really is? Maybe. Does this mean that others who have had the same experience can accurately predict the future of the entire world, or can accurately predict Revelations to begin with? Maybe. No one can truly be sure until it happens.
I would like to ask you some brief questions, mainly about you now, not your beliefs. See, I have this one very large problem with the Internet: I cannot see the person, or hear their voice, so I have no mental image of who I am talking to. I know there are constant warnings of predators on the 'Net, but I feel we have talked enough, I am beginning to trust you. So I propose a small thing; we share a little about ourselves. We are becoming friends, and I feel we should at least have a vague idea as to who we are talking to.
In friendship,
Blessed Be.
Celosia
Reply from Allan Turner on 3 April 1999
Celosia,
I've received your latest response, and will answer it as soon as possible.
Just a quick note about what I look like and some of my background. All this is on my site. Click on the picture of me and you'll get some information. Then check out the FAQs and click on "Who is Allan Turner?"
Allan T.
Reply from Allan Turner on 12 April 1999
Dear Celosia,
I continue to operate at a disadvantage in this discussion. You originally contacted me about some things on my site that you thought were inaccurate. As of this date, I have yet to learn what those things are. I also have asked you for the standard by which you have examined Wicca and found some of its tenets to be invalid, while saying that you have found my religion to be “quite valid.” Up to this point, you have avoided my question, and I would like for you to tell me why.
You have felt the necessity to engage me in this dialogue, so I thought you would want to challenge me on those areas where we would disagree. So, this is why I thought you would bring up monism, pantheism, and polytheism. But, you say that you are open to these if I want to discuss them. But I really don't care to do so if these are not representative of your beliefs.
All I know about you is that you're a Goddess worshipper who is not Wiccan nor New Age, which means you're not in the mainstream of contemporary Goddess worship. So, again, I'm at a disadvantage about what you believe. This is why I told you at the beginning that I was ready to learn from you about this, but so far, you have provided very little along these lines.
Frankly, I do not think your visions and premonitions are of the same category as the Divine revelation exhibited in the Bible. The “within days” fulfillment of your visions and dreams may be a clue as to what is happening, as I'm sure others have already pointed out. In other words, there is nothing that indicates this ability is Divine inspiration. Although what is happening seems unusual, it could be totally natural. On the other hand, there might be something wrong with you mentally. I'm not saying this is the case, only that it might be. Additionally, you may be under the influence of demonic forces. The apostle Paul warned that there is a spiritual dynamic at work in idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:19-20). Those engaged in pagan idolatry, the occult, New Age religion, etc., report many such paranormal events.
As a Christian, I am instructed to “test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). In the next two verses, the apostle John writes: “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” When I consider that which you advocate and worship, it is clear to me that you do not pass the Biblical test for prophetic legitimacy.
I haven't said any of this to be unkind. But the integrity of our dialogue requires honesty from both of us. There are many different religions in this world, and all of them claim to be valid. I believe Christianity to be the only valid religion for mankind. The only tools at my disposal are reason and the Bible itself, which I believe is the only true, objective standard of authority in religion. The central figure of history, as I see it, is Jesus of Nazareth. Furthermore, I believe the pivotal point of history is the death, burial, and resurrection of this Jesus, who is called “Christ.” If it is reasonable to believe that the Bible is a special revelation from God, and I think I can show you that it is, and if there is credible evidence that Jesus of Nazareth did, in fact, resurrect from the dead, and I will be happy to show you the overwhelming evidence for this, then you ought to be willing, like doubting Thomas, to say to this Jesus, “My Lord and my God!” If that day ever comes, I will rejoice with you in your new found faith.
In the meantime, I respect you as a fellow human being. I respect your conscience, although I don't think it is properly informed, and would defend your right to exercise yourself religiously, as long as such exercise is consistent with decency and order. Nevertheless, as a follower of Jesus Christ, I am genuinely interested in what is best for you, and Goddess worship, although subjectively it feels so right for you, is not, in my opinion, what is best for you. So, here's my questions for you: (1) Are you interested in determining if the Bible is what it claims to be? (2) Do you want to consider the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth? (3) If these two things could be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt, would you give up Goddess worship and become a Christian?
Neighborly,
Allan
From Celosia on 25 April 1999
Allan-
First, I wish to apologize for the incredibly long delay on returning this letter. Things have been rather hectic here, and I haven't had any time to sit down and check my mail. Second, my significant other wanted to become involved in this conversation, I was wondering if he could be sent a copy of our letters and perhaps say something when he wishes. He is Atheist, and I feel it would be an interesting viewpoint to add to this. He even has me doubting the existence of the Goddess every now and then.
Now, you also mentioned something about total honesty, and I realized that you may feel I haven't been completely honest, when, in fact, I tend to forget this one very important piece of information. I have been told by many people I look much older than I am, and speak like it most of the time. Just out of curiosity, how old do you perceive me to be? I want to be sure I haven't mislead you in any way on accident.
All right, let's get down to the usual. :)
My religion, has I have stated, is quite similar to Greek. If you are familiar with Troy, it will be easier to explain, but to ensure I do not leave out anything that you do not know, I will have to assume you do not know of this particular sect. In ancient Troy, there were two Temples, one of the God, Apollo, and one of the Goddess, The Maiden. Within the Temple of The Maiden, there were quarters for the Priests and Priestesses. Some very select few women were chosen and trained by the High Priestess of the Temple. These women learned how to work with the Snakes, as the Serpent is the sacred animal of The Maiden. One of these Priestesses would be selected as the next High Priestess. She would then be taught all the secrets of The Maiden, as well as Apollo. Now, I have yet to reach full High Priestess stature, so I cannot answer all your questions, but I can tell you most of what I know. It will take quite a while to explain, though, so sit back and get comfy. :) First, there was Chaos, the first being.Now, even though there are no records of his gender, as pure space has none, Chaos is referred as He, and as the Father of all the Gods. Now, from Chaos came Gaia, the Earth. She was the Firstborn child of Chaos. Next came Nyx, the Night, and Eros, Love. Gaia created Uranus, (or Ouranus, depending on pronunciation.) the Sky, to give Her some distance between Chaos and Herself, as Chaos was quite unpredictable and could get quite a temper. Uranus and Gaia are responsible for the Birth of the Titans, who are, in turn, responsible for the Birth of the Gods. Now, to truly understand the rest of the stories, I would have to relay every legend and Tale, from why the Titans were overthrown, to Pandora's Box, to the Race of the Golden Apples, and the tale of the Trojan War itself. This would take several hours to relay, and I really don't think you wish to sit there and read for hours on end. I will relay bits at a time, when I feel a story is relevant to the point I am trying to make, or when I just think I should tell you one.
I haven't brought up most of the topics you feel, because I am not completely sure of what pantheism means. As I said before, very few people know how old I really am. In actuality, I am still in high school. Few people believe that, but I would not lie about something that minor and pointless. If you would, please clarify what you mean. Then we can continue far easier.
I apologize if you feel I have deceived you, I honestly rarely think about it anymore. Everyone I know is between the ages of 18 and 28, and I am treated as a 22-year-old. I tend to forget how old I really am when I am getting into a debate of any type. I am truly sorry.
Sincerely,
Celosia
Reply from Allan Turner on 29 April 1999
Celosia,
No, I had no idea how young you were. But, this doesn't mean I think you deceived me, so no apologies are necessary.
Yes, you are certainly free to send our correspondence to your “significant other,” as you called him. In fact, the dialogue is posted on my website for others to read. The policy I follow is that unless those responding to my webpage request anonymity, I post their responses for public consumption, if I think others could benefit from reading them.
I have had a rather lengthy dialogue with an Atheist already, and it's available for view by clicking here. So, if your Atheist friend wants to look at that dialogue and contribute something, that will be fine with me. Even so, continuity would seem to require the dialogues be kept separate. So, if he wants to write something, I would welcome it, but I would respond to his questions or remarks separately.
Asking Again
Because you made no effort to answer the closing questions in my last response, I'm going to repeat the questions: “(1) Are you interested in determining if the Bible is what it claims to be? (2) Do you want to consider the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth? (3) If these two things could be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt, would you give up Goddess worship and become a Christian?”
I've also asked you repeatedly for the standard by which you have examined Wicca and found some of its tenets to be invalid, while saying that you have found my religion to be “quite valid.” If you can't tell me what that standard is, just say so.
Further, you started this dialogue by saying that you disagreed with some of the things I wrote, but you have yet to tell me what they are, even though I have asked you more than once.
It may be possible that your age and inexperience factors into you not answering these questions, but the rules of humane discourse demand that you do so. Otherwise, we really can't have a meaningful discussion. Perhaps you need to study up on the rules of debate. How old are you? You never said—just that you were in high school.
Why?
As far as the particular mythology you follow, it is interesting, but I'm more interested in “Why” than “What.” Why do you believe what you believe? This is what I'm really interested in. Does reason have anything to do with it, or is it totally subjective? As I am willing to give you a reason for the hope that is in me (1 Peter 3:15), I would think that you would be willing to do the same thing.
Your Requested Clarification Of Pantheism
Pantheism is the belief that “all is one.” Another name for this idea is monism. Mono means “one.” Monism, then, is the belief that all that is, is one. All is interrelated, interdependent, and interpenetrating. Ultimately, there is no difference between God, Goddess, a person, a rock, etc. They are all part of the continuous reality that has no boundaries, no ultimate divisions. Any perceived differences between separate entities—between Joe and Judy, or between Joe and a tree, or between the Goddess and Celosia—are only apparent and not real.
I really don't know if this is what you believe, but I suspect it is. I've been wrong on most everything else about you, and I may be wrong on this also. If so, it's not necessary for us to talk about it.
I'll be awaiting your reply.
Respectfully,
Allan
From Celosia on 6 May 1999
Allan,
First, I wish to apologize for taking so long to get back to you. As I said, I am in high school (age 16), and finals are approaching, so I have been studying.
I will attempt to answer your questions now.
"(1) Are you interested in determining if the Bible is what it claims to be?"
Yes. I have always been fascinated with the Bible, and would love to look at the proof you are willing to present to me. I have been looking at various religions for most of my life, and have an interest in the facts that are behind most. Please show me where it has been proven.
"(2) Do you want to consider the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth?"
Yes, go ahead. Once again, I love looking at facts behind beliefs.
"(3) If these two things could be substantiated beyond reasonable doubt, would you give up Goddess worship and become a Christian?"
No. Let me explain. I could believe in your version of God, I could read and study and even memorize the Bible, but I could not worship the way I have been told in Church. I cannot, and refuse to, bow before anyone or lessen my worth simply because a 'higher being' tells me to. I will not alter my lifestyle for any diety, I do not even do so for Artemis. I will not say I have sinned, for I do not believe I have. So, if worship and rituals make someone a Christian, then no, I would not become one. I would, however, pray to your God, though.
"I've also asked you repeatedly for the standard by which you have examined Wicca and found some of its tenets to be invalid, while saying that you have found my religion to be "quite valid."
I simply believe that the forms of Wicca I have been exposed to are too 'fake', for lack of a better term. I do not believe that the Goddess would force such a difficult and grueling ordeal. True Wicca takes several years to even become a novice at, but then you have so many stages to achieve before you can truly be called Wiccan. I respect those who Practice, but I do not understand why it should be so difficult to simply worship and love the Goddess.
"As far as the particular mythology you follow, it is interesting, but I'm more interested in "Why" than "What." Why do you believe what you believe?"
I believe in the gods because I cannot believe in only one Being to watch us and take care of everything. I feel it is too much for one being, no matter how great, to be in complete charge of. I believe in the Greek Gods specifically, because They seem to make the most sense. I worship Artemis, because I feel a kinship to Her. I guess that's another part of the 'Why.' I feel closer to the gods. They make mistakes as well, They feel, They fight, They love. They are very human. If God created man in His own Image, then why are we so messed up?
Thank you for clearing up the terminology for me. I suppose I believe a bit in Pantheism, but I would definitely have to say that there is one difference between everything. Perspective. A single die has six faces, a world can have millions. I thought monoism was what you stated, but was not completely sure. Thank you very much for clearing that up.
I was unaware you were posting this on your website. I feel a bit embarrassed now, but that's simply because no one listens to a 16-year-old. I rarely have my ideas heard, much less have an actual discussion about them. It's a bit bizarre for me, to know that the entire world could read this if they really wanted to.
Thank you for continuing your correspondence, even though I'm just a teen-ager. I will try to write back more often.
Awaiting your reply,
Celosia
Reply from Allan Turner on 8 May 1999
Dear Celosia
When I started this dialogue with you, I had no idea you were only sixteen. I could not have guessed it from the level of your conversation. I'm sure the others who read this will be surprised also.
I am glad that you were exposed to some of the things I've had to say on my website. I pray that, in the years to come, something I've said might cause you to reflect on your condition before the Almighty God.
Your answer to question number three effectively terminates this particular dialogue. Your determination not to obey Jesus Christ, even if He is who He says He is, makes any demonstration of questions (1) and (2) purely academic, and I simply have no interest in such an endeavor. Frankly, I have more pressing things to do.
However, if you ever change your mind about question (3), then I'll be happy to give you a reason for the hope that is in me (1 Peter 3:15). If you can point out some factual error in my critique of goddess worship, I will be happy to correct it. And, if I can be of any assistance to you in regard to any other matter, I remain at your disposal.
Celosia, Jesus Christ is not a way, a truth, or a life. He is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). This means that apart from Jesus there is no going, knowing, or living. And finally, Jesus, whether you wanted Him to or not, came into this world and died for you, because He loved you.
Yours in service to Him,
Allan Turner
From Celosia on 9 May 1999
Allan,
I am greatly sorry. Perhaps you misunderstood. I did not say I would not worship Him and do as He said; what I meant was I cannot worship the way I have seen.
Is there only one way He is worshipped today? Are all of them correct?
However, if you feel this conversation has come to a close, I am sorry. These letters were becoming a high part of my day. I regret to say goodbye.
Always,
Blessed Be.
Celosia
Reply from Allan Turner on 17 May 1999
Dear Celosia,
Yes, there is only one way to worship Jesus, and that is His way. Denominationalism is wrong and is condemned in the Bible. I am not a Jew, a Catholic, nor a Protestant. I am, instead, just a Christian (cf. Acts 11:26b; 26:28; and 1 Peter 4:16).
If there is any chance you'll give up your Paganism and turn to Jesus Christ as Lord of your life, then I'll be happy to show you, from the Bible, this one way.
Because you have now indicated your interest in Jesus and the Bible, I have posted a lengthy article on my website entitled Bible Proofs and the Historicity of Jesus. I would like for you to read this article, and then get back with me with any remarks you might have.
I'll be awaiting your response.
Your friend,
Allan