Dialogue With A DO NOTHING Religionist

Flower boarder
The fact that I call this respondent a "DO NOTHING Religionist" is not derogatory. It is only meant to describe the particular religious doctrine he advocates.

From Spencer Hardiman, shardiman@ardmore.net, on 24 July 1999

mister allan I just happened on your website. There is only ONE gospel (1 Cor 15:1-4). You preach ANOTHER gospel(Gal.1:7). Therefore you are under a CURSE from GOD (Gal.1:8). i know Im going to heaven when I die. So did John(1 John5:13),so did Peter(1 Peter1:5) & so did Paul (2 Tim. 1:12). To bad you are ever learning & not able to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Reply from Allan Turner on 27 July 1999

Dear Spencer,

On my web site I cited passages to make my point. You disagree with me, so what did you do? You cited three passages which you think are "your" passages, without even an effort to explain the passages I cited. Unfortunately, this is typical of the kind of responses I get to my material.

What do the passages I cited mean? Do you not feel an obligation to say? If, as you say, I preach "ANOTHER gospel" (Galatians 1:7), then I want to know it, so I can repent. But, in your uninformed judgment, you seem too quick to "shake off the dust of your feet" (Matthew 10:14). I'm ready to be convinced, rebuked, or exhorted, as the Scriptures say I ought to be (1 Timothy 4:2), but where is your "longsuffering and teaching"?

Let's look at the passages you cited as your "proof texts."

You write: "I know I'm going to heaven when I die. So did John (1 John 5:13)." The question under discussion has nothing to do with the power, ability, and faithfulness of God to do exactly what He said He'll do, although this is the way you determinists like to frame it. I believe, as the Bible teaches, that there is, in fact, a place prepared for us, and that there is a crown of righteousness laid up for us. I believe God has done, and will continue to do, His part. About this there has never been a question in my mind. The question is: Will we do our part? If we "hear [the Lord's] voice" and "follow [Him]," there is no doubt that He gives us "eternal life." However, this eternal life is predicated on hearing His voice and following Him. Consequently, under these conditions, we "shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [us] out of [His] hand" (John 10:27). As I've pointed out on my web site, salvation by the magnificent grace of the Almighty God is conditioned upon our obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ (Acts 5:9; Romans 10:16; 6:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:8b; 1 Peter 1:22; 4:17b). This is why John, in the passage you cite as your proof text, went on to say, "that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." If, as you allege, one is eternally saved when saved from his past sins, and this by faith alone, then why would John be reminding Christians to "continue to believe in the name of the Son of God, something they could not quit doing, if you are right in your interpretation? Actually, I don't think you have a satisfactory answer, according to your interpretation. Nevertheless, I'll be awaiting your response. On the other hand, my interpretation is this: Ultimately, "eternal life" is what the gospel is all about, and here, as well as in many other places in the Bible, we are reminded that "eternal salvation" is truly what it is all about. But, in the very context, it is pointed out that continued faith is a condition of this eternal life. If not, why not?

You then mention Peter, citing 1 Peter 1:5, which says, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Yes, there is "an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven...," and this is God's part (i.e., "the power of God"), but notice that this is also in connection with faith (our faith). God will be faithful, on this we can count, but will we? Once again, our faith is a condition of "eternal salvation," even in this passage, is it not? Even so, I have no problem with the idea that God knows right now (foreknows) those who will be eventually glorified in heaven (Romans 8:29-30). In fact, it seems to me that those under discussion here in 1 Peter 1:5 are actually the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father" (1 Peter 1:2a), and, as such, will, indeed, be "kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last times." Even so, God's foreknowledge of our saving faith certainly does not preclude it as a condition of "eternal salvation," does it? Remember, it is this same Peter who wrote: "Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:10-11). Further, it is this same Peter who wrote: "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire." Does this sound like "once saved, always saved" to you? In addition, look at those Peter describes in 2 Peter 2:2. Do you want me to believe that these false teaches, who had been bought by the Lord, but were then teaching false doctrines, were still saved?

How about the writer of Hebrews, did he believe in "once saved, always saved"? Read Hebrews 10:29, which says, "Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?" Tie this in with verse 26, which states, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." In verse 39, the writer contrasts those who "draw back to perdition," which are the ones he has been talking about, with "those who believe to the saving of the soul." Who are these? They are the ones that do not "draw back to perdition." They are the ones Peter called the "elect according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Peter 1:2). They are those who will one day be glorified with the Lord in heaven (Romans 8:29-30).

Finally, you mention what Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:12, as if this ought to forever settle the question regarding your doctrine. In doing so, you portray a shallowness in your understanding of what Paul actually taught, not just here, but in many other passages. In this particular passage, the great apostle to the Gentiles, who was about to be offered up for the cause of Christ, expressed his total confidence in the Lord's ability and faithfulness to do for him all that He had promised. That this is all Paul wrote about seems clear. To get your "once saved, always saved" doctrine from this passage, you must actually read into the passage this interpretation. Consequently, what you have done is much more informative than you apparently realize, in that while committing one of the most egregious errors of hermeneutics (viz., reading into a passage something that is not there), you accuse me of "ever learning & not able to come to the knowledge of the Truth." Spencer, the context of 2 Timothy 3:7, which you cite, has not escaped me. It is clear that you have already written me off as being unteachable. But, if you had not already done so, and were actually asking me to "reason together" with you (cf. Isaiah 1:18), I would certainly have to give some serious thought to the wisdom of doing so. Why? Because you have already demonstrated yourself to be a "blind guide," and we both know that the blind guides, and the ones who follow them, all fall into the same ditch (Matthew 15:14). Why don't you come down off that spiritual high horse you seem to be riding and demonstrate to me your willingness to reason with me from the Scriptures on this vitally important subject? And while you're at it, go back and look closely at the context of 2 Timothy 3:7, observing some of the characteristics manifested by the false teachers in this category, reflecting upon your own motives for engaging me in this exchange, and then perhaps you'll be better able to help me extract the perceptual silver you think I'm troubled with on this subject.

Paul, like all the other writers of the New Testament, never taught "once saved, always saved." In fact, it was Paul who wrote, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified." If Paul, as you say, believed in "once saved, always saved," what was he saying here? Please explain to me, and the readers of my web site, just what you think Paul meant when he penned this statement. Please take the time to look at the immediate context of this passage, particularly chapter 10. Make sure you read as far as verse 12, which says, "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall," and explain to me how this passage is to be interpreted in light of your "I know I'm going to heaven when I die" statement? In verse 13, Paul goes on to talk about the faithfulness of God, who will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we are able, but with the temptation will make a way of escape. Does this mean we will escape? Not necessarily. It means that we are enabled by God to do so, but whether we do, or not, is up to our own free moral actions. We must exercise our wills (or faith, if you will) to choose the "way of escape" the Lord has provided. This, the Bible teaches us, is what being saved by grace through faith is all about (Ephesians 2:8).

I pray my response will be of some value to you.

I await your reply,

Allan Turner

From Spencer Hardiman, shardiman@ardmore.net, on 27 July 1999

mister Allan,

Where do I start . I guess the best place to start is to look & see what Jesus had to say about this subject of eternal life. Jesus christ promised in john 6:37 he would in NO wise cast out. I know what your thinking Jesus wont cast us out but we can get out ourselves and the answer to that is NO we cant. Salvation doesn't belong to me ,it is Gods.(Eph 2:8-9) It is a gift. If we had to do anything to keep our salvation we would all go to hell (James2:10)Galations 2:21 states clearly that if we could become righteous by ANYTHING WE DO, then Jesus Christ's death was in vain. Salvation is a father / son relationship by birth after you are saved( John 1 12-13).My father here on earth is name is Mahlon If i move to Kuwait change my name write home & tell my father I dont want to ever hear from him again as for as I am concerned I have no father color my hair orange& brake all ties with my father who is still gonna be my father? Mahlon Hardiman will still be my father . The same with my spiritual father If i could lose my salvation by something I didthen Christ made a bad mistake when he died on that old rugged cross! salvation is complete in HIM not me Now to answer you on some of your verses you used. Lets see i guess well start with the one they all use (Heb. 10:26). this passage simply states therethat christ was sacrificed once at calvary. You quoted 2 Peter 2:1 look at the context FALSE prophets . If they are false then they were never saved the lord boughteverybodies salvation but you have to accept it before it is yours, and to say these fale prophets are saved is absurd.My mind goes back to David when he sinned against god when he killedaman after he had sleep with his wife ,then god takes his son for comitting this sin but what does David say You( being his dead son) cannot come to me but I cango to you. David said he was going to see his boy in heaven one day & if anyone was gonna lose their salvation after sinning it would be him He slept with a married women then had a man killed to cover up his sin but he knew that when he died he was going to heaven.I will close with this verse ( Romans 8:38-39). Notice the first few words I AM PERSUADED

I hope to hear from you again real soon !! Spencer

If your woundering Yeah I'm one of those Fundamental Baptist!!!!!!!!

Reply from Allan Turner on 14 August 1999

Dear Spencer,

Since receiving your last response, I've been very busy. Included in this were two out of town trips. Therefore, I apologize for the long delay in getting back to you.

You began by asking, "Where do I start. [sic]" That's a question Spencer, and you didn't have to guess. You should have started by responding to my detailed reply. You then end by saying, "I hope to hear from you again real soon!!" Why? So you can ignore my arguments once again? You don't seem to be listening to a thing I'm saying. Nevertheless, I will respond again, hoping that you will feel obligated to respond in kind. I assure you that I do this not because I enjoy it, but because I believe the lordship of Jesus Christ demands it.

You cited the Lord's words in John 6:37 as if they are proof of your position. The context is similar to John 10:25-30, which I've already commented on in my previous reply. There I wrote: "I believe God has done, and will continue to do, His part. About this there has never been a question in my mind. The question is: Will we do our part? If we "hear [the Lord's] voice" and "follow [Him]," there is no doubt that He gives us "eternal life." However, this eternal life is predicated on hearing His voice and following Him. Consequently, under these conditions, we "shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck [us] out of [His] hand" (John 10:27). You were absolutely silent on this. Even so, let's take a look now at John 6:37, where Jesus said, "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." This passage is in the context of verse 35, where Jesus said: "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." If words mean anything, the coming and believing of this passage are the conditions for not being cast out. Now, who are these who come to Jesus and believe in Him? According to verse 37a, they are the ones the Father gives to Jesus. And who are these the Father gives? They are the ones the Father foreknew would, of their own volition, and in response to the gospel, be "conformed to the image of His Son, that He [Jesus] might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Romans 8:29). These, according to Romans 8:30, are the ones who have been "predestined," "called" by the gospel of Jesus Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:14), "justified" by the Lord's blood (Romans 5:9), and finally "glorified," which both you and I believe is to be our eventual glorified state in heaven. In other words, in the mind of God, this process, which, in this time-space-matter continuum, has not yet been accomplished, is a done deal. Only the infinite God can speak this way, calling those things which do not exist as though they did (Romans 4:17).

The fact that God knows now, and in eternity, those who are His is a doctrine I believe is clearly taught in God's Word. Even so, this does not mean I ascribe to the Calvinistic idea that Jesus died only for the elect, a concept clearly refuted by the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 5:14; Hebrews 2:9; John 3:16; Mark 16:15-16; etc.). Neither does it mean that I believe it is impossible for a child of God to be lost after being saved from his past sins. As I already pointed out in my first response, the Bible is replete with such passages. I know that you must be aware that the same Jesus who said He would in no wise cast out those who come to Him in belief, also said that, under certain conditions, He could, and would, blot out names from the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5; 22:19). But if, as you say, once saved, a child of God is always saved, then it would be impossible to have his or her name taken out of the Book of Life, which is where the names of the blood-bought are written (Philippians 4:3). It seems clear that in order to enter into Heaven one's name must be written in the Lamb's Book of Life (Revelation 21:27). In fact, if one's name is not written in the Book of Life, then he will spend an eternity in a Devil's Hell (Revelation 20:15). But your interpretation (i.e., once saved, always saved) clearly contradicts what the Lord said about this. In Revelation 3:5-6, Jesus said: “He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.” Now, this was spoken to the church at Sardis. In other words, He's speaking to Christians, those who had been saved and had their names written in the Book of Life. Even so, this was a dead church, with only a few who had not “defiled their garments” (Revelation 3:4). These, He says, “shall walk with me in white, for they are worthy.” I understand this to mean that they will go to Heaven. Why? Because their names were not blotted out of the Book of Life (verse 6). Clearly, the implied threat to the others is that unless they remember how they had heard and received the gospel, and repent, they will have their names blotted out of the Book of Life. If not, why not? If it can't happen, as “once saved, always saved” folks teach, then what is the Lord implying here and in Revelation 22:18-19, where He plainly says: “For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book”? What, Spencer, do you have to say about this?

You then cite Ephesians 2:8-9, and comment, "Salvation doesn't belong to me, it is Gods [sic]" Yes, salvation is, indeed, a gift from God. Who said it wasn't? But, this precious gift is given to us and we receive it through faith (Ephesians 2:8). If it is given to us, and we receive it, wouldn't a reasonable person think that we actually possess it? You then proceed to say, "If we had to do anything to keep our salvation we would all go to hell (James 2:10). "It is interesting that you refer to it as "our salvation," as this is a contradiction of what you previously said. Therefore, and quite frankly, what you have written about this is quite confusing. Now, when you say, "If we had to do anything...," does this include being "faithful unto death" (Revelation 2:10)? If this is a condition for receiving a "crown of life," and the Lord says it is, then we are required to do something to keep our salvation. So, you can see, Spencer, that you are not arguing with me so much as you are arguing with the Lord.

Your citation of James 2:10 is interesting, for you yourself know that we are not under a system of perfect law-keeping in order to be saved, and this was not James' point. His point was that even under grace, law is still law, and when we break just one law, we are guilty (i.e., just as guilty as if we had broken all of the laws). Of course, the wonderful thing about Christianity is NOT that we have some kind of immunity from sin (i.e., when God looks at us, He only sees the perfect doing of Jesus, as you "once saved, always saved" folks believe), but that when we do sin, "we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1). In introducing this scripture, John, by inspiration, teaches us that our relationship with God, the Father, through the blood of His Son, Jesus Christ, is an ongoing relationship in which certain obligations on our part must be met: "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:7-8). So, once again, the Scriptures make it clear that God has done, and will continued to do, His part, BUT that we must do our part as well. If we quit listening and following the Lord, we will not one day be glorified with Him in heaven (cf. John 10:25-30; Romans 8:29-30).

But you reject this view. In doing so, you cite Galatians 2:21, saying, "...if we could become righteous by ANYTHING WE DO, then Jesus Christ's death was in vain." True, we are not going to be saved by "ANYTHING WE DO" apart from the blood of Jesus Christ, which we have access to by means of God's marvelous, unmerited favor or grace. Listen to what the Holy Spirit said about this: "But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Do you expect me to believe that faith is not "ANYTHING WE DO"? On the Day of Pentecost, those who finally believed who Jesus was, asked the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). Peter told them, "Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." In light of the commandments of an inspired apostle, do you expect me to believe that repentance and baptism are not "ANYTHING WE DO"?

Now, it was the apostle Paul who, in Romans 10:9-10, said: "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Do you really think I'm going to believe that confessing with the mouth is not "ANYTHING WE DO"?

Belief, repentance, confession, baptism, and being faithful unto death, are all things we are commanded by God to do. These are not the self-justifying works mentioned in Ephesians 2:9, which are works that have nothing at all to do with saving grace, but are, instead, the God-prescribed works that manifest the saving faith written about in James 2:14-26. Saving faith is a work prescribed by God (John 6:29), and not a work that God does, as you "fundamentalist Baptists" claim. Faith, or belief, is something (a work) that God requires of us. It is something we must do. In other words, the Bible tells us that we cannot be just hearers of the Word, but we must also be doers of the Word in order to be blessed (Matthew 7:21; James 1:23-25).

Then, in order to justify your DO NOTHING religion, you go into a rather lengthy story comparing what you believe is your "once saved, always saved" salvation with the father/son relationship. First of all, I do not believe it is correct to say that salvation is a Father/son relationship. Rather, the Bible teaches that the salvation, which comes through our connection to the blood of Jesus Christ, puts us into a Father/son relationship with God, the Father (John 1:12-13; Romans 8:15; Galatians 4:6). Ironically, the story you tell is similar to that of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32. Except, when Jesus tells the story, which actually deals with a variety of subjects, it is the context of repentance (the Lost Sheep, verse 7, the Lost Coin, verse 10), and not a "once saved, always saved" teaching, as you try to make it. Again, as I've already pointed out, this doctrine you believe has you struggling with the Lord Himself. Notice the ending of this story as Jesus told it: "And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found." In your story, although you have shunned, disobeyed, disowned, and disregarded your father, you arrogantly believe his inheritance is still yours, even in your unrepentant and unfaithful condition. You are dead wrong, my friend, and the Lord's own words say so. The prodigal son, at one time, had access to all the father possessed, but when he went into a "far country" he was "dead." Only after "coming to his senses," and, in humble repentance, returning to his father, did he receive his blessing once again. This is exactly equivalent to the process previously outlined in 1 John 1:5-2:2. Why can't you see this?

Although you have accused me of being a false teacher, it is actually your doctrine, not mine, that turns the "grace of God into licentiousness" (Jude 4). It is telling to note that the Greek word translated here as "licentiousness" in the NKJV and "lasciviousness" in the KJV, carries with it more than just the idea of "unbridled lust." It also includes the ideas of outrageousness, shamelessness, and insolence, which are characterized in your version of the story--a disobedient son in a far country who demands from his father what he believes to be his rightful inheritance. Spencer, you, and those like you who teach this ungodly doctrine, ought to be ashamed. Instead, you arrogantly proclaim, "I know Im [sic] going to heaven when I die." And this, you claim, is going to happen even if you become disobedient and rebellious. Why? Because, according to you, you never were, and will never be, required to do anything in order to be saved by God's grace. You are wrong, Spencer, and your doctrine is damnable. It is you who teach a "different gospel, which is not another, but there are some who...pervert the gospel of Christ" (Galatians 1:7a-8). Please, my friend, repent and obey the gospel while you still have time and opportunity. Paul, in Galatians 5:4, wrote that it is possible to become "estranged from Christ" and "fallen from grace." What you need to do is believe it!

Finally, your attempts to answer a few of the passages I cited in my previous reply would be laughable if the subject we were dealing with was not so serious. Do you actually believe that I, or anyone else, will believe all Hebrews 10:26 is talking about is that "christ [sic] was sacrificed once at calvary [sic]"? What the passage says, without any commentary by me, is, "For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries" (verses 26-27).

In response to my use of 2 Peter 2:1, which says, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction," you reply, "If they are false then they were never saved." Now, is that what this passages says, or is not this a reading into this passage your "once saved, always saved" doctrine, which says that one who had been bought with the blood of Christ would never do such a thing? In your effort to ignore the obvious fact that these false teachers had been bought with the precious blood of Jesus Christ, and therefore had been saved in the past, but, in their present condition, were no longer saved, you tell me that "the lord [sic] bought everybodies [sic] salvation but you have to accept it before it is yours, and to say these false prophets are saved is absurd." First of all, I never said, and this passage does not teach, that these false prophets "are saved." My argument, which I believe is substantiated by this passage, is that these false prophets had been, but were no longer, saved--something you believe can't happen, and something I maintain is the clear teaching of the Bible. This passage teaches that a "bought" (and this I believe infers salvation) individual can be lost. Now, although the Bible does tell us that Jesus died (i.e., paid the price) for all mankind (which, incidentally, is something most Calvinists don't believe, in that they believe He died only for the elect), and that we "accept" this salvation by a faith (i.e., saving faith) that manifests itself in obedience to the gospel (cf. Hebrews 5:9; James 2:26), I haven't been able to find a single instance where "bought" and "purchase" are used in connection with the blood of Christ where it does not refer, in some way, to those who have been saved (1 Corinthians 6:20; 7:23; Acts 20:28). Furthermore, the passages referring to Jesus' blood are also connected with salvation (Romans 3:25; 5:9; Ephesians 1:7; 2:13; Colossians 1:14, 20; Hebrews 9:12, 14; 10:19; 13:21-22; 1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5; etc.). So, unless you can offer some scriptural proof that "bought" in 2 Peter 2:1 doesn't mean these false prophets had been saved at one time, then why don't you adhere to the principle which says, "If a man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God" (1 Peter 4:11)? I suppose that if you ever get around to it, you'll try to tell me that the one sinning "willfully," in Hebrews 10:26, who verse 29 says, "...counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace" had not, at one time, been saved. But if not, what does being sanctified by the blood of the covenant mean? In case you haven't noticed, Spencer, that's a question. Please answer it, if you will be so kind.

Furthermore, it is interesting that as a result of your DO NOTHING religion, you argue that "if we had to do anything," to be saved, or remain saved, this would be "another gospel." But then you turn around and say that we have to "accept" salvation. Sure, I know this, and this is exactly what I teach, but answer me this: In view of your DO NOTHING argument, how does one "accept" salvation without doing anything?

You then mention David as being one who deserved to be lost, but wasn't. Spencer, what kind of argument is this? Due to sin, we all deserve to be lost. This, of course, is what makes being saved by grace so wonderful. You do know about "grace," don't you? In other words, when speaking of grace, we are talking about "unmerited, undeserved favor." David, who was in covenant relationship with God, sinned grievously, and so deserved to be lost, about this there should be no doubt. But what you seem to have conveniently left out of this scenario is this: David repented and humbled himself before God. He did not continue in willful sin, but confessed it. Consequently, by an applicated of Jesus' blood (Romans 3:25), his sins were forgiven. This process is taught in God's Word (Ezekiel 33:10-20; 1 John 1:9). This is what I teach and believe. But according to your doctrine, David didn't have to do anything, did he?

I'll be awaiting your response.

In service to Him,

Allan Turner

From Spencer Hardiman, shardiman@ardmore.net, on 19 August 1999

dear Allan,

I was happy to hear from you finally& thought your letter interesting. You say that you've been traveling alot, I truly hope not to spread the garbage that you are writing to me.

In response to you letter, I guess we'll start from the top 7 work down. you stated that john10:27 is two parts. mr. allan you could not be further from the truth! He said MY Sheep hear my voice that voice is the holy spirir it guides into all truth& as for as following him as christians we follow him. To say this is requirments to salvastion is assurd!!!

You then quoted from rev. 3:5 & 22:19 saying that this book is written.You also said that in order to get to heaven you had to be written in the LAMBS book of life,which I believe but there is a difference in this book & the book of life. what the difference is I dont know but there are numerous books God is keeping(Exo. 32-32,Job19-23,Matt.24-35Jer17-13)What kind of sin or how many sins do you have to do before your name gets blotted out?? Do you think you have crossed the line???

Then you go into some junk about the prodicasl losing his salvation . HE was his son when he left & he was his son when he returned> IT HAS TO DO WITH FELLOWSHIP NOT RELATIONSHIP!!!

THen you go on to state about Rev. 2-10 . Do you see a trend going you go to alot of verses in Rev.I'd be leary of that if I got my doctrine from Rev. But anyway this passage has nothing to do with salvation !~!!!!!!!!! These CHRISTIANS are being martyred for there faith thats why they get the crown!1 oh & whilre we're here since when did the devil put you in prison & try you for ten days? If he didn't your not saved then! You better go a looking for him111 Talk about laughing!!!!

Then we get to the good stuff You sighted ,like the good undercover cambellite you are, Acts2-37,38.Baptism has nothing to do with our salvation . Paul, the greatesty christian that ever lived, stated that he didnt come to baptize but to preach the gospel. so what did he mean by that? If you didnt see that is a question! If water saved us then there having revival in florida!!!

Gal5-4 says that we're justified by faith not the law!! read it

If what you say about Heb 10-26is true then buddy your damned for hell(Heb.6-4,5,6)your doomed .

oh one more passage before i ask you one (2 Pet2-1) those false prophets were not purged or shall I say saved God paid for the sins of the Whole world(1 John 2-2)god bought everybodies sin debt but you have to accept that payment!

Now what do you think 1 Cor. 15:1-4 is ??and could you give me a testimony of your salvation??

I'll be waiting


After receiving Mr. Hardiman's last reply, I sadly decided there were other, more pressing things that deserved my attention.
Flower boarder

Back To The Dialogues

Return Home